24 straight teeth CAL | AEM
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turbo306
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24 straight teeth CAL

Hello!

I have an issue, I do not have a cal file that meets my needs. My engine: 4age 20v sivertop. My setup is:

24 crank wheel with evenly spaced theeth (with no missing tooth) VR/MAG sensor. NO Cam sensor and 3 wire Coils from nissan altima over each plug. (do I have to use an external igniter? as far as I know it is only needed with 2 wire coils).

I want to run wasted spark and batch fire mode. Please tell me what calibration file do I have to use and exactly what changes would I have to make? or better if someone has a cal file that I could use?

somebody help me please!!! I wanna use my carrrrr

AEM_NS
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Unfortunately there's no way

Unfortunately there's no way that that combo of crank/cam profiles would ever run.  In order to run without a cam input you MUST use a missing-tooth crank profile.  Do you have 24 crank teeth per rev (48 teeth per cycle) or 24 teeth per cycle (12 physical teeth on crank)?  If you really actually have 24 teeth on your crank wheel, you could take one of the teeth off making it a 24-1 pattern which will run without a cam input.

turbo306
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yeah, I was considering that

Right now the ems do reads RPM but I understand that It wont know when to shoot the spark/fuel. so I was considering that option. the wheel is actually in the inside of the distributor, so If I grind a tooth off, It would actually be 24-1 taken from the cam (half the rpms?), not at the crank. Also if I remove a tooth off the wheel, could it be any tooth or the bigger space would have to match the engine at TDC?.

Also, how would I have to configure the settings?  spark teeth? fuel teeth? wheel teeth? and, what would I have to do in order to tell the ecu that I am not using a cam sensor? how would the spark and injectors woud need to be configured?

also the coils wiring for a wasted spark would differ?

 

OMG I have a lot of questions.

AEM_NS
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Why does your 4AGE

Why does your 4AGE distributor not have a cam output signal?  Most Toyota distributors have both a cam and crank output.  There are going to be many pitfalls with this setup.  First, the EMS-4 can only accept rising edge VR signals and most OEM sensors (including Toyota) output a falling edge signal.  Inverting the signal is as easy as swapping the + & - wires around but the problem with Toyota distributors is that most times the sensor ground for both the cam and crank are tied together.  This means having to go into the distributor and going back far enough that there are two separate wires.  That's the first problem.  Oh and if you didn't verify the wave form on an oscilloscope then there's a good chance it's the wrong wave form.

Second, VR/mag signals require external filtering.  This is covered in the DIY/FAQ thread.  Others have reported having problems getting this app sorted and resorted to adapting an EPM.  The EPM typically gives very clean cam & crank signals but there's obviously some work involved in getting the unit adapted to the engine.

If you really truly only have a crank signal coming out of the distributor and it's 12 teeth per rev, 24 per cycle, then you could take two teeth off that are 180° apart from each other.  This would effectively make a 12-1 crank pattern and I think post a base cal for this setup in the DIY/FAQ thread.  Doing this is a little hokey and a better setup would be a dedicated crank trigger wheel and separate cam input.  

If you check in your AEMTuner directory you'll find a folder named 'Calibrations' that has base cals for many different combinations of cam/crank profiles.  You need to review these cals and then select the one that most appropriately fits your final setup.  If you don't find a specific match, minor cal changes can be made to make one work. 

Re your coils, we really have no way of knowing if they need an ignitor or not.  It's the end users responsibility to know what parts they're using.  I will say that older SR20DET COP coils were "dumb" coils that required an ignitor and they had three pins.  You'll need to do some checking to see if your coils are "smart" or "dumb".  

turbo306
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You are absolutely correct.

You are absolutely correct. Let me explain myself.

When I tried to invert the cables, as the cam and crank share a ground, I had to dissassemble the dizzy to split the grounds and invert the wires. BUT when I dissassembled it, the case where the connector is, is just UNSPLITTABLE. I mean that I couldnt open it. so that is why I only inverted the crank sensor wires in the wiring itself. let me post a picture of the part that I could not open in halves. maybe you can help me with this. (link below)

So, not being able to do the above mentioned, I thought that maybe cutting off two teeth from the crank would actually help me get the signal. The thing is that I dont know what CAL file to use because the one that you are saying is actually 12-1 hall sensor and 1 cam, so what would I have to do to make it work? I know it is not really the best but I dont really mind that much.

 

[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/fzaum1.jpg[/IMG]

 

AEM_NS
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Here, try this cal.  It's

Here, try this cal.  It's setup for 12-1 VR crank, no cam, semi-sequential fuel and waste spark COP ignition.  Remember that because this is semi-sequential fueling, the injectors fire twice so your fuel map values will be halved.  

12-1 CRK VR NO CAM 4 CYL COP WS SEMI SEQ.AEM20.01V24.cal

turbo306
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One last question before

One last question before proceding, Do I chop any two teeth that are 180degrees apart, OR, I should put the engine for example at TDC and chop the one that is at a certain amount of  degrees before TDC or anything like that????

AEM_NS
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Any two teeth 180° apart.

Any two teeth 180° apart.  BTW, we'd prefer that you use one avenue of communications when contacting us.  Tech support notified me that you've also been in contact with them and you've been receiving practically the exact same answers through email that I've been posting here.  It's not really a good use of time to have two representatives assisting the same customer and providing them with the exact same information twice.  

turbo306
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Sorry my bad, and thanks for

Sorry my bad, and thanks for all the help provided. I will post the results later tomorrow tho.

turbo306
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ok so here is the deal, I cut

ok so here is the deal, I cut 2 the two teeth and now I have fuel and spark but the engine wont start- 

It feels like if the fuel and the spark were not occuring at the correct moment. the engine sputters from time to time but wont start.

any suggestions please? 

AEM_NS
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Did you sync your timing?  An

Did you sync your timing?  An engine starting and running usually isn't too reliant on fuel delivery timing whereas it's very reliant on ignition timing.  If you have fuel and correctly timed spark, getting the engine to start and run from here is a matter of cold start tuning.

turbo306
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But in the manual says that

But in the manual says that yo should sync the timing when the engine is running, but here I can't make the engine run. Do I have to do it with the starter motor spinning the engine?

AEM_NS
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The manual saying you should

The manual saying you should sync the timing with the engine running only applies to apps that have a base cal that are already setup and should have the timing already close enough to start the engine.  On a full custom app such as this, you MUST check the ignition sync during cranking because if the ignition timing isn't fairly close to be correct, the engine will never start and you obviously can't check the timing with the engine running if the engine won't start because the timing is off.  

The standard procedure is to disable the injectors either in the software or by physically disconnecting them and then cranking the engine while checking the timing.  Use the Ignition Timing Sync Wizard to adjust the ignitions firing location. 

turbo306
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OK so what I should do is to

OK so what I should do is to crank the engine while increasing or decreasing the timing in the wizard but how will I know when the timing is correct if the injectors are disconnected and the car won't start?

AEM_NS
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You're checking the timing

You're checking the timing DURING cranking.  You DO NOT want the engine to start because without having sync'd your timing, you have no idea where the timing is which could result in engine damage.  This is probably one of the most fundamental rules of stand alone engine management systems - you ALWAYS check your ignition sync before attemping to start an engine!  The timing is correct when the timing at the engine matches the timing advance you're commanding in the software.  If you're commanding 10° of timing and with the timing light you see that the spark is occuring 50° BTDC, your ignition sync is wrong.  You must then adjust the sync until you get the actual amount of timing you're commanding in the software.

Fundamental rule #2 is your should only ever trigger a timing light off the coil secondary.  On a COP ignition, this means putting a spark plug wire between the coil and the spark plug.  DO NOT attempt to trigger a timing light off the coil primary or low current trigger wire as this can result in incorrect readings.

Digger
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Joined: 08/22/2014 - 13:18
[quote=AEM_NS]

AEM_NS wrote:

Why does your 4AGE distributor not have a cam output signal?  Most Toyota distributors have both a cam and crank output.  There are going to be many pitfalls with this setup.  First, the EMS-4 can only accept rising edge VR signals and most OEM sensors (including Toyota) output a falling edge signal.  Inverting the signal is as easy as swapping the + & - wires around but the problem with Toyota distributors is that most times the sensor ground for both the cam and crank are tied together.  This means having to go into the distributor and going back far enough that there are two separate wires.  That's the first problem.  Oh and if you didn't verify the wave form on an oscilloscope then there's a good chance it's the wrong wave form.

Second, VR/mag signals require external filtering.  This is covered in the DIY/FAQ thread.  Others have reported having problems getting this app sorted and resorted to adapting an EPM.  The EPM typically gives very clean cam & crank signals but there's obviously some work involved in getting the unit adapted to the engine.

If you really truly only have a crank signal coming out of the distributor and it's 12 teeth per rev, 24 per cycle, then you could take two teeth off that are 180° apart from each other.  This would effectively make a 12-1 crank pattern and I think post a base cal for this setup in the DIY/FAQ thread.  Doing this is a little hokey and a better setup would be a dedicated crank trigger wheel and separate cam input.  

If you check in your AEMTuner directory you'll find a folder named 'Calibrations' that has base cals for many different combinations of cam/crank profiles.  You need to review these cals and then select the one that most appropriately fits your final setup.  If you don't find a specific match, minor cal changes can be made to make one work. 

Re your coils, we really have no way of knowing if they need an ignitor or not.  It's the end users responsibility to know what parts they're using.  I will say that older SR20DET COP coils were "dumb" coils that required an ignitor and they had three pins.  You'll need to do some checking to see if your coils are "smart" or "dumb".  

Just a question about the VR polarity

I notice that all the factory base cals have "Crank mag falling" set as ON and I believe this is correct from speaking to tech but you mention EMS-4 can only accept rising edge VR signals ?

I have some sensors that have the connector marked with a + sign so I guess they mean this should be connected to the signal wire and not ground ?

AEM_NS
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[quote=Digger]

Digger wrote:

Just a question about the VR polarity

I notice that all the factory base cals have "Crank mag falling" set as ON and I believe this is correct from speaking to tech but you mention EMS-4 can only accept rising edge VR signals ?

I have some sensors that have the connector marked with a + sign so I guess they mean this should be connected to the signal wire and not ground ?

The EMS-4 can ONLY accept rising edge VR signals and the crank mag input trigger MUST be set to FALLING.  The raw VR signal goes through a conditioner chip which outputs a square wave to the processor.  Where the raw VR signal rises and cross zero, the chip outputs a falling edge which the processor uses to trigger off of.

As stated before, most OEM VR sensors output a FALLING edge signal and this must be inverted when input into an EMS-4.  This is accomplished by swapping plus for minus and minus for plus.

TitaniumThirteen
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I have an EMS-4 cal from a

I have an EMS-4 cal from a perfectly working 4A-GE 20V blacktop, made 167hp with ITBs, full sequential injection and ignition. I do not know if I can attach a file here so  tell me how you want it sent.

One problem you will face with 4AGE distributor is severe noise issue for the cam signal. You will need a strong pull down resistor to fix it. I use about 100-150 ohm to make it work but you can start from 500 ohm. Without it you wouldn't be able to rev very high without having misfires.

turbo306
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Sure please do! please email

Sure please do! please email the calibration file to jose306@gmail.com, Id gladly appreciate to take a look at it.

to install the pull down resistor, one lead goes to the crank sensor signal wire and the other one goes to chassis ground, am I correct?

TitaniumThirteen
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No, the pull down resistor

No, the pull down resistor should be betwen signal and signal/sensor ground. In this case it's between cam/G1 and G- terminal. You don't need to do anything with the crank/NE signal.

AEM_NS
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Ti, perhaps you can give some

Ti, perhaps you can give some insight on a good way to invert the VR signals that have their minuses tied together in the distributor?  

turbo306
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[quote=AEM_NS]

AEM_NS wrote:

Ti, perhaps you can give some insight on a good way to invert the VR signals that have their minuses tied together in the distributor?  


Yeah I'd like to know what you did! Also please send me the Cal if yummy can!

Sportmax
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Any updates on this topic? I

Any updates on this topic? I am installing a EMS 4 onto my BT 4AGE and this is good information.

hybridworks_ant
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 i am also working on a

 i am also working on a project with the same engine set up. i am looking to get this thing running and dyno tuned, after i finish i promise i will share the file as a base for some one who needs it.

hybridworks_ant
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 i am also working on a

 i am also working on a project with the same engine set up. i am looking to get this thing running and dyno tuned, after i finish i promise i will share the file as a base for some one who needs it.

Husler
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Any updates on this

Any updates on this hybridworks and titanium ?

hsams01
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Hi I've been workin on a 4age

Hi I've been workin on a 4age using a 4agze dizzy I converted the cam sensor to rising edge. And eliminated the second cam position sensor thats in the dizzy all together. Once I changed the cam wiring to rising edge I still had horrible sync error and timing errors. So I changed my cam to rising and falling then re ignition syncd the timing and presto no more timing or sync errors. The car revs to 6000k with eas but begins to break up above that I'm going to try the resistors tomorrow and if that doesn't work I'm going to try the abes resistor design and see if that works.

hsams01
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Btw to convert the cam signal

Btw to convert the cam signal if you look at the 4 wires coming of the dizzy you will see three standard wires and one that looks like a bunch of wires bundled together take a razor to the sheathing and peel it back and you should see a clamp like thing honing three white wires together going to one white wire undo this clap carefully then take a volt meter and do a continuity from each white wire to find the correct cam sensor pickup once that wire is found cut the wire put it with the white wires which are the opposite poles of the cam and crank sensors and use the white wire as the pickup wire to the ecu now you have a rising edge cam pickup after resold ring all the connections and hopefully running shielded cable to the ecu from the dizzy and adding a resistor lol you should be able to rev to the moon

hsams01
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Update added 150 ohm resistor

Update added 150 ohm resistor from cam signal to cam and crank ground now revs as high as I want with no hiccups

Wasim Khalawan
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Hey Guys I’m trying to get my

Hey Guys I’m trying to get my stock 4age BT running with the aem ems4 but I dnt know which CAL to use
Does anyone here have a custom Cal file for a 4age 20v that can help me get it running ? I plan on using stock dizzy ignition system

Juantael Parchment
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This is definitely true. My

This is definitely true. My latest update on this same problem with a 4efte... I installed a resistor yesterday and my problem was solved!!

J. Parchment

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