2jz No Start on Infinity 506 | AEM
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Turbobox
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Joined: 03/22/2019 - 15:48
2jz No Start on Infinity 506

Good day, 

I have a GS300 with a 2JZGTE non-VVTI that I upgraded to an Infinity 506 from a Series 1 that bricked up. The engine uses the 36-2 timing wheel from the VVTi engines and I am attempting to run the engine in a batch fire mode so that I can make sure that the settings are good before adding in the cam sensor input. I have the cam sensor unplugged and both cam and crank wired with shielded twisted wire to minimize any noise. Currently my crank signal has no noise and is verified falling edge on an oscilloscope, timing is synced correctly, and I maintain sync while cranking and partial running. I am using 1000cc Rochester low impedance injectors with a fuel pressure sensor. The fuel tank is filled with fresh fuel from the pump with fresh spark plugs (resisted). The engine has no idle control, it is a TB setup only and ran just fine on the Series 1.

My issue is that I cannot get the engine to idle without being jogged by the starter motor. I have the cranking map give enough fuel to pull out of cranking rpm, but the engine won't stay running in the main map (started with the 2JZ supra base map). I am wondering if I have to alter the map or any other settings to account for batch fire mode. I could use a set of eyes on my cal because I'm essentially burnt out on thinking and I also burned out my starter motor attempting to get this thing running. Also, I please check to make sure my fuel injector tables are in the ball park as I got as close as I could to what was in the Series 1 tables and online, which is scarce on info for them.

I tried going up and down in the VE tables but no real dice, although the closest I seem to get with a starter jog is around 80 VE. I'm down to my spare starter and I like to figure things out on my own but I need help before I burn another starter and spend more money on this.

 

I'm including 3 of the most recent attempts but I have many more if needed.

 

I tried contacting by email but no dice. Any help is appreciated.

 

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_37.itssn

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_37.itlog

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_36.itssn

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_36.itlog

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_35.itssn

EngStartAttemptSemSeq_35.itlog

AEM_SB
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Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/07/2014 - 14:29
Thanks for posting logs.

Thanks for posting logs.

1. The OEM Supra injectors are low-impedance but the harness has a resistor pack since the OEM ECU didn't have peak-and-hold drivers inside. Our Series1 EMS didn't have peak-and-hold drivers either, so there's a good chance your car still has that resistor pack installed. The Infinity-506 has peak-and-hold drivers inside, but the hardware doesn't detect the actual injector resistance so you have to configure the software to match your setup. Your calibration is configured to run in peak-and-hold mode which won't work well if you still have the resistor pack installed. If your car still has that resistor pack, you will need to change all cells in the table FI_DutyCyc [%]  to 100. That table can be found in the 'Injector' page of the layout. If you've removed the OEM resistor pack and bypassed it, please leave the FI_DutyCyc table as it was.

 

That log data looks OK in terms of the crank & cam signal inputs, and there aren't any rev limiters or cuts active.  Starting an engine is relatively simple: it needs air, the right amount of fuel, compression, and a correctly-timed spark event to light the mixture.

First thing is you need air. Because you're still getting things dialed in, I would hold the throttle around 10% during all your starting tests. Personally I don't like running engines without an IAC valve, but it can be done.

Then set the entire ignition map to a constant number like 10 or 15 degrees and have a helper use a timing light to watch the ignition timing while the engine is trying to start and idle.

Then adjust fuel. Below 400 RPM the ECU is ignoring the main VETable and LambdaTarget tables and using these two tables from the 'Start' page in the layout: CrankVE_Table and LambdaCrankingTable. For the most part, it's best to leave CrankVE_Table at our base map values and focus only on LambdaCrankingTable. LambdaCrankingTable lets you set the desired air/fuel ratio to inject depending on the coolant temperature. The numbers in the table are usually going to be richer than normal running air/fuel ratios, because engines tend to need more fuel when cranking than when they are already running. 

In general, there will be some range of 'enough fuel' that will let the engine start in less than 3 or 4 seconds of cranking. If the engine is taking a long time to start, less fuel (larger numbers in the LambdaCrankingTable) will usually make it take even longer to start. That said, it's still wise to test with less fuel just to confirm the engine takes longer to start. Too much fuel could flood the engine and get the spark plugs wet, which will prevent it from staring properly later even if you command a mixture that should work. On the first try, set very high values in the table like 18 AFR. Then once you've confirmed less fuel doesn't help, try adding fuel by using richer values in that table (17 AFR, 16 AFR, 15, 14, ... etc 12 AFR, 11 AFR, 10, AFR, 9...) until the engine RPM accelerates above 400 RPM.

Once the engine is above 400 RPM the ECU switches to the main VETable and LambdaTargetTable. If your injector data (flow and offset) is reasonably close and the MAP sensor is measuring pressure accurately I would expect to see numbers between 30-80 in the VETable in order to hit your target AFR.
 
I'm not familiar with the phrase 'starter jog', but the log shows battery voltage is very low sometimes when the engine is above 400 RPM. This could mean you're holding the starter on too long, or it could mean the alternator isn't working, or it could mean the spark is firing so early the engine is trying to stop or spin the alternator backwards. Once the engine accelerates on its own, you should only be using the throttle and fuel adjustments to keep it running. Don't hold the starter after the engine tries to start, the extra drain on the battery will not help.
 
Hope that helps,
SB
Turbobox
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You brought up a good point

You brought up a good point that went over my head about the series 1 injector drivers, SB. I will follow your suggestions and report back. 

Additionally, I have no IAC because the TB is a custom setup that no longer has a boss for an IAC motor, which is fine I can dial it in as I've done in the past. "Starter jog'  simply means that the starter motor is spinning the engine to help maintain rpm like holding a kids bike handle as they attempt to ride on their own.

The battery needs to be replaced because it drops voltage badly, so I use a battery charger to help. It will be replaced once I can get the engine to start ok.

Alex

Turbobox
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The page crashed and my post
The page crashed and my post was LOST!! Captcha is not working when I attempt to post logs... frustrating.
 
Ok, I've confirmed that the injector harness is not resisted as it's a factory harness for the stock 2jz vvti non-turbo with high impedance injectors. Resistance was 0.3-0.4 ohms on my meter for the injectors. The series 1 must've been modified to with resistors on the board to make it work with the low z injectors, as it was a common thing to do back in the day and some solders look more recent than others. 
I followed the instructions above and I found a good place where the engine will climb above 400 rpm within a couple of seconds. I used the base map Crank VE and only moddified the Lambda Cranking table. I then changed the ignition table to a flat 10* on the main map and zeroed out the VE table also. I worked my way up until 80 VE in increments of 10 but no real result beyond a sputter of life. Anything after 80 got worse and after a 100 VE attempt, I found the plugs to be wet with fuel so I know the injectors are opening enough (low VE attempts had dry plugs). I will be draining the fuel tank completely again and refilling with fresh fuel to eliminate that as a factor (there was some old unusable fuel that the pumps can't get to).
 
The injectors should be close in regard to the offset I took them from the series 1 tables and they also match a spreadsheet of injector data online fpr 40 psig. I had to guess on the other pressures and voltages based on other presets for similar injectors listed in the wizard as the infinity takes different fuel pressures into account. Here are the values I have:
Series 1 table
678910111213141516
255025502190169013801150960810700600530
2.552.552.191.691.381.150.960.810.70.60.53
Online source:
                   cc               lb/hr          ohm                             10v           11v             12v            13v              14v            15v
Rochester1008962 1.381.150.960.810.70.6

 

 

 

AEM_SB
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Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/07/2014 - 14:29
Interesting you can get it to

Interesting you can get it to fire up but can't get it to stay idling. It sounds like you've done a good sweep of possible VETable values, that still leaves air and spark. Did you have a helper watch ignition with a timing light while the engine tries to start? Are you using some throttle to make sure there is enough air?

 

It's not a bad idea to double-check all 6 coils and injectors are wired to the correct pins on the ECU. One or two cylinders might be enough to start the engine, but not enough to idle. If the coils are wired to the wrong pins, you will often hear pops or backfires. There are also some circuits on the vehicle's harness that will only get power when the key is in the 'start' position, wiring coils or injectors to those pins might cause a problem like you're describing. Look for the info about 'Diagnostics pakgrp file' in the second part of this post:

https://www.aemelectronics.com/comment/12396#comment-12396

 

 

Hope that helps,

SB

AEM_HB
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Joined: 11/07/2016 - 09:22
On top of everything AEM_SB

On top of everything AEM_SB suggested ->Try changing the values in the VR_PWM duty table (bottom left of your CamCrank tab) from 30 & 40 to 60 & 95. Both the Non-vvti and vvti 2jz engines respond better with higher values in this table.

Turbobox
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Last seen: 11 months 2 weeks ago
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I'm currently getting help

I'm currently getting help via email as the forum does not work well for me for some reason. I'd be lucky if this post even makes it. As an update, I can start and run the engine around 2k rpm with starting fluid, so this is a fuel delivery problem.

AEM_SB
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Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/07/2014 - 14:29
Sorry the forum software isn

Sorry the forum software isn't working well for you. Try to avoid attaching pictures, just post text. 

 

If you suspect a fuel delivery problem, first check for fuel pressure. The injectors won't spray fuel without sufficient pressure, and the OEM Supra had a funky fuel pump control module that needs to be triggered differently than the coil of a simple relay. 

 

After you've verified there is pressure in the fuel rail, you can flash a diagnostic file into the ECU to manually trigger each of the coil and injector outputs. The process is described here:

https://www.aemelectronics.com/forum/infinity-output-testing

 

If the injectors were cleaned or sat for a long time, it's possible for them to get mechanically clogged and stop opening when commanded by the ECU. Manually triggering is a good way to check if you can hear them actually open.

 

Hope that helps,

SB

Turbobox
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Last seen: 11 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 03/22/2019 - 15:48
 

 

Thanks for the tips it did go a long way. My injectors were restricted internally from testing them for spray pattern, so I removed them and installed spare new ones (much smaller in size unfortunately). But the engine did start and run well enough to begin at least tuning some until the other injectors get sent out for a refresh. This whole process of elimination was a long one and I really had thought I was doin something wrong because I wasnt used to this new software model. Calibrating the VR sensors was a learning experience and at least I understand what the deal is there. 

One mistake I made was that I didn't wire the 12v input pins according to the power distribution diagram and that was a huge takeout to me because the infinity seemed to power up and function as normal. The giveaway that something was wrong was the battery voltage was not reading correctly even after I installed a fresh battery, no charger unit, new alternator, etc. so for those reading this post, make sure you wire BOTH 12v input pins as well as permanent battery and ignition switch power. Else, the unit will read wild swings in voltage and that can throw off lookup tables in the software!

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