Series 1 to Series 2 in a Mustang | AEM
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azfiveoh
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Series 1 to Series 2 in a Mustang

I have a 92 Mustang and have been wanting to upgrade to a Series 2 since the Series 1 is no longer supported.  I bought a 6050 box which has plenty of inputs and outputs, I just don't know how to incorporate the TFI/SPOUT connection.  The car has been modified to use a 12 tooth trigger wheel as a crank sensor and the stock distributor acts as a cam sensor.  In the factory harness for the Series 1 the old crank wire was moved to the cam input and the wire from the crank trigger sensor is the new crank input.  The SPOUT wire is a dedicated input to the computer.  Can anybody tell me how to adapt a Series 2 while using the stock distributor and TFI.  Due to the way things are mounted in the engine individual coil packs are not a good option for me.

Thanks for any help.

AEM_NS
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Was your stock distributor

Was your stock distributor modified to only have one tooth?

azfiveoh
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Yes, only one tooth. The

Thanks for your quick reply. 

Yes, only one tooth in the distributor. The reluctor wheel in the distributor was modified so that all but the narrow tooth were removed.

AEM_NS
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Well you'll need to open up

Well you'll need to open up the EMS and pull the boards out in order to change some jumper positions.  The 6050 crank input comes set for a VR input - if your crank sensor is Hall Effect you'll need to change JPT1 to the 1-2 position.  Since the cam signal from the distributor is Hall Effect you'll need to change JPT2 to the 1-2 position.  The coil output on the 6050 is set for 0-12v "rising edge" ignition trigger which should work with the TFI module.  That should be it hardware wise.  There'll be a slew of software configuration things that need to be done but you can probably start with a Honda base cal, turn on injectors 5-8, setup the cam/crank wizard for an AEM EPM (assuming you have a Hall Effect crank sensor), and then copy and paste the pertinent cal data (fuel & ign map, trims, sensor calibrations, etc) from your Series 1 cal.     

azfiveoh
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Thanks so much for you prompt

Thanks so much for you prompt and extremely detailed reply.

The crank sensor is, in fact, a hall effect type sensor.  Will I need the spout wire for any reason or can it be removed from the harness?

Thanks, again.

AEM_NS
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I'm no TFI expert, but from

I'm no TFI expert, but from what I understand, SPOUT is the spark trigger output from the factory PCM to the TFI module.  So as it is currently, the SPOUT wire should be connected to coil 1 on the EMS.  You'd want to carry this over to the Series 2.  It's not important that you actually have the physical stock SPOUT wire with SPOUT plug connector thingy as there'll never be a reason to pull the SPOUT plug out as you're no longer using the TFI's self control function.  You're using the TFI module as purely an ignition driver now to control the high current primary switching of the ignition coil.  So, if you want, you could completely replace the original SPOUT with a new wire that links the EMS's coil 1 output pin to the SPOUT input pin on the TFI module - or you can leave it in place.  Doesn't really matter. 

azfiveoh
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I'm not much of a TFI expert

I'm not much of a TFI expert either.  As it is currently, the SPOUT wire is connected to the ECM via a dedicated pin...pin 36.  The coil uses another wire elsewhere from the harness.  Just so I understand correctly, the SPOUT function of the TFI is no longer necessary as the EMS will handle timing control via the cam and crank signals?

AEM_NS
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AFAIK, SPOUT is the coil

AFAIK, SPOUT is the coil trigger signal from the ECU to the TFI module and is required to trigger the coil.  What you used to have was that you could remove the SPOUT plug and the TFI would run off it's own PIP signal which is the 8 tooth signal coming from the "cam" sensor inside the distributor.  Ford was smart in that they placed the edges of the trigger wheel teeth to occur at or near TDC so with the ECM not controlling spark through SPOUT, the TFI would fire the coil based on the physical edges of the trigger wheel and the engine would run at a fixed timing value (10° IIRC).  That whole functionality is long gone now that you've cut 7 of the 8 teeth off leaving only a single tooth.  So TFI module can no longer run the engine without a SPOUT signal from the ECU to tell the coil when to fire.  This means you MUST have something connected to the SPOUT pin on the module.  The PIP pin is the "cam" sensor signal output pin that needs to go to the cam input on the EMS.  And crank goes to crank obviously.  

azfiveoh
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I managed to get everything

I managed to get everything installed and couldn't get the car to fire...I was hoping someone might be able to give me some direction in where I can troubleshoot.  The box powers up and connects to the computer.  I am seeing normal sensor output just about everywhere.  When I turn the starter over I am seeing 24 teeth in the A Tooth parameter but I am not seeing anything from Cam Tooth and instead of a Stat Sync when the engine comes back around to TDC I'm getting a timing error.

I've verified the Cam+ wire is going to the cam sensor (old PIP wire).  Do I need a Cam- connected at the box as well?  I don't have a Crank- and that sensor seems to be working just fine.

Another strange thing I'm seeing is that the engine load is changning with throttle position.

Thanks, in advance, for any help.

AEM_NS
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A couple things...

A couple things...

First, we've been spending some time looking at the TFI coil control for a possible Infinity app and have realized that getting the TFI module to accept an ECU-generated SPOUT signal is a little more involved than just sending the module a rising edge trigger.  My suggestion is to use a single channel ignitor, change the ignition output to 5v falling edge, and trigger the coil with the ignitor instead of the TFI module.  It'll make things much easier.

Second, if you're not getting a cam signal, you need to figure out why.  Did you set the T2 jumper for a hall input?  Perhaps you should check the cam signal with an oscilloscope.  Also, be sure to sync your timing before attemping to start the engine.  Another thing you should do is check the injector firing to make sure that cyl 1 is firing near TDC exhaust.  We can go over this once the engine syncs and runs.

azfiveoh
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As always, thanks for the

As always, thanks for the helpful response.

Does your testing the Infiniti with a TFI mean that a PNP box may be in the works for a fox body?

I'm certainly open to doing away with the TFI module in lieu of an external ignitor if that will make life easier.  I think the current calibration has the coil trigger as falling edge to match the calibration that is in the car, so I will make that change.

Where I am wrapped around the axle is why I am not getting a cam signal.  I'm using the same wire for the Series 1 and the Series 2.  The car runs perfectly normal on the Series 1 and by simply plugging in the Series 2 I no longer get a cam signal.  I'll verifty that the T2 jumper is set to hall effect.  If it is, is there anything in the calibration that could be causing this?  Also, do I need to have anything going to the Cam- pin in the wiring harness?

Again, thank you for your help.

AEM_NS
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The first step of any

The first step of any Infinity app is getting timing pattern support.  This gets the Infinity to recognize a cam/crank pattern and sync to fire coils/injectors.  This is where we're starting - not sure where exactly things will go from there.

I think you might be confusing the coil trigger edge with leading/trailing coil settings in the software.  The coil trigger edge (either 12v rising edge or 5v falling edge) is only set with the hardware jumpers.  If changing to an external ignitor, the coil jumper needs to be set to 5v falling edge.  Remember that you can keep the TFI distributor in place - you'll only be using the single tooth PIP signal for a cam input.  You'll just be bypassing the TFI coil output and using an ignitor to trigger the coil.

Make sure that you have the cam trigger edge selected in the software.  You should probably set Cam(T2) Falling Edge to ON and Rising Edge to OFF.  Nothing needs to go to cam minus - only the cam signal needs to go to C29.  Are you sure that the TFI module is getting power and ground?

azfiveoh
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Thanks for clarifying the

Thanks for clarifying the coil trigger explanation.  I misunderstood your instruction when I read the post.

Regarding the cam sensor, the calibration currently is configured as you have described above.  Since the car sees a cam signal with the Series 1 and not from the Series 2 I will check that the TFI module is getting power and ground with the Series 2 box plugged in once I have verified that JPT2 is set to 1-2.

I will report back as soon as I've had a chance to complete those checks.  Once the car syncs, and if the coil doesn't want to fire, I'll start preparing to install the ignitor.

azfiveoh
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I was able to track down the

I was able to track down the problem with the cam sensor and got the car to sync up. Once the car syncs it does fire the coil, but it seems to do so much less frequently than the commanded 3 teeth. It looks like the coil is firing every 12-24 teeth.

My settings in adv pickups are as follows:
Fuel Teeth - 24
Wheel Teeth - 24
Spark Teeth - 3
Ign Range - 3
Ignition Sync - 0
Tooth Time Min - 50.1
All other settings in Cam/Crank Setup are set to OFF
Coil dwell settings match the settings in my AEM Pro calibration

I am not sure if this kind of thing is the difficulty to which you were referring with the TFI, I had presumed you meant it was difficult to get the coil to fire at all.

Thanks, in advance, for your assistance in understanding what might be causing this issue with the coil firing less frequently than expected.

AEM_NS
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You're using an ignitor now

You're using an ignitor now and don't have the TFI module triggering the coil?  What does the channel Coil 1 do while cranking?  It should turn on/off eight times every time Cam Count increments once.  A good check would be to use an oscilloscope to check the coil trigger signal versus the cam signal.  Again, there should be 8 coil triggers between cam teeth.  Are you getting any Sync or Timing Errors?  Stat Sync'd stays on while cranking?

azfiveoh
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I am currently using the

I am currently using the factory TFI module, I wanted to see if I would problems before ordering and installing an ignitor.  I had presumed that the TFI would simply not fire the coil so I was encouraged when the coil fired.  Are the issues I am having with the coil indicative of the issues you experienced when experimenting with the TFI based system?

The channel Coil 1 does flash on and off, but it does not appear to be flashing frequently enough such that it is 8 times per cam count.  It's tough to say because I am not sure if the computer responds fast enough to show it in the software.  At the coil, the triggering frequency is approximately 1-2 times per cam count.

While cranking there are no reported Sync or Timing Errors and Stat Sync'd remains on while cranking.

Thanks, again, for your help.

AEM_NS
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You need to be logging Coil 1

You need to be logging Coil 1.  Simply looking at it while cranking isn't doing you much good.  Start logging, then crank and stop and save the log then review it.  Count the number of times Coil 1 triggers between Cam Count incrementations.  You'll probably need to add either channel to a workspace tab in order to PC log them both.  PC logging should be sufficient to capture the coil triggering events at cranking speed.  If there are more coil trigger events being recorded in the log than there are actual spark events from the coil, then you can probably suspect the trigger of the TFI module as not being sufficient.  I think you can save considerable time by not using the TFI to trigger the coil and going straight to an ignitor.

azfiveoh
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It would be nice to be able

It would be nice to be able to use the factory TFI and not have to mount and wire in another component, just for the sake of space and simplicity. I don't intend to do a great deal of troubleshooting if the coil output isn't working properly, especially given the fact that it's a known issue from your testing.

As always, I appreciate your support.

azfiveoh
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I was talking with a friend

I was talking with a friend earlier and he mentioned that it might be possible to completely bypass the TFI and use the AEM coil output to trigger a Crane HI-6 CDI box that is in the car. On the input side the CDI has a switched 12VDC and a negative coil trigger which comes from the TFI. If I were to directly wire the coil output from the AEM to the trigger wire on the HI-6 would it solve my TFI problem or would I nuke the coil driver on the EMS?

AEM_NS
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Using either a CDI or single

Using either a CDI or single channel ignitor would achieve the same thing but if you already have a CDI on the car then it'd make sense to use it.  You'd configure the EMS the same way for either ignition setup - needs to be 12v rising edge trigger.  Triggering the CDI directly from the EMS shouldn't be a problem.  Set the dwell to 1 or 2 ms.    

azfiveoh
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Thanks for the good news

Thanks for the good news about being able to use the CDI and not having to separate the boards on the EMS.  The pins on the top board are a very tight fit into the header and it's no fun pulling it apart.

It would be easiest to run a new wire from the EMS, say Coil 2, to the input side of the CDI instead of cutting wires.  Would there be unintended consequences in doing that or is it as simple as running the wire to the CDI and enabling Coil 2 in the software while disabling Coil 1?  Also, what is the purpose of the #B coils?

 

AEM_NS
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Yes, you can use Coil 2.

Yes, you can use Coil 2.  Just turn it on and set the phasing to zero and turn Coil 1 off. The B coils are for the second firing of the coil for waste spark.  

azfiveoh
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Sounds great, I'll give it a

Sounds great, I'll give it a try over the next few days.  Also, by bypassing the TFI I'm presuming my stock tach will no longer work properly.  I'm also presuming I would have the same problem using the AEM coil driver as well.  If my hunch is correct, do you happen to know if the tach output on the 6050 box can be configured to drive the factory mustang tach or is the signal coming from the TFI some proprietary Ford signal pattern.  I'd prefer to keep the stock instruments in the car if possible.

As always, thanks for your help.

AEM_NS
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Unfortunately I'm not sure

Unfortunately I'm not sure what type of signal the stock tach is expecting.  If it just needs a regular 12v square wave then you can use the tach output from the 6050 (LS7 generally).  If it needs to see a coil primary signal (like you'd get if tach pickup is hooked up to coil negative), then you'll need to figure something else out.  Your CDI box probably has a tach output that might work.

azfiveoh
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The tach needs a coil primary

The tach needs a coil primary signal and the CDI box outputs a square wave, unfortunately.

azfiveoh
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I'm going to try to start it

I'm going to try to start it and see how far the tach is actually off.  How do you recommend I go about setting everything up in order to get the engine to start so I can sync the timing?

 

 

 

AEM_NS
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You should check the timing

You should check the timing while cranking with the injectors disabled.  Then, once the timing is close, re-enable the injectors and start the engine and then verify sync.  Re the tach, some looking around online will show you a solution that uses the coil from a relay to create an inductive trigger for the tach.

azfiveoh
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Thanks for the response, it

Thanks for the response, it was what I was thinking as well.  I pulled the spark plugs this morning so it wasn't terribly hard on the starter and I get some moderate engine RPM as well.  I am going to see if I can copy the sync settings from the series 1 tune so hopefully it will be very close.

Regarding the tach, I did some reading and what I have come up with is that using an MSD tach adapter can potentially solve the issue. Most are saying that because I am using a separate coil driver and leaving stock wiring from the TFI intact the tach should still work.  I'm waiting for an assistant to come over to help with cranking the car.  I'll report back with how it goes.

As always, I appreciate your help!

azfiveoh
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Would it hurt to leave coil 1

I got the box up and running on the CDI but there are random misfires with no timing errors, so I must presume it is the formula of the EMS and the CDI.  Does the coil dwell setting in the AEMTuner software have any effect on the coil?  Since the CDI is driving the coil and the EMS is sending a signal to the CDI is it correct to presume that the coil dwell is controlled by the CDI and there is no influence from the software settings.

azfiveoh
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I know there is no support

I know there is no support for the series 1, but do you happen to know the output from the SPOUT pin?  I've read the EEC-IV outputs some kind of 50% voltage square wave.  I have no idea what that means, but I was hoping you might.

Thanks, again. 

azfiveoh
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I have a log file during

I have a log file during cranking and you can see that the coil output is somewhat erratic. I expect to see the coil fire every three crank teeth but it is not firing.  The one time I did start the car the misfires can be felt. I didn't want to start it again, however until this is sorted out. I cant figure out how to attach the log file for your review.

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